![]() ![]() When Billy Mitchell outsmarted a computer (in the days when computers were still magically genie things), who though that ? would figure out ? When inventions like the wheel/gear were amazing, who thought the atom bomb would someday be a thing? It was hard for humans to grasp the ideas of the very world around them once upon a time. but just because a human can't decipher it's cryptic behavior right now, doesn't mean one won't in the future, or some other life form possibly. It may be some crazy patterns that take great memory/recall/anticipation/observation/analysis/etc over what seems like an impossibly short amount of time. Therefor I say, unless we let a computer truly decide on it's own (or rather NOT decide and let it do it's first 'impulse' we'll say), with none of our input, what it does ISN'T random. To compare it to our D&D conclusion, we could never roll enough dice to really simulate life. 001% off the bulls eye and in the ten ring. If you compared it to a shot at a bulls eye, someone might split hairs and say your bullet hole is actaully. Me and friends have had this discussion while comparing D&D to real life.īasically, since numbers are infinite, anytime you narrow a selection of numbers down, be it as small as or as big as when you compare it to inifinity? I agree (in the sense of text/legal/code book or by 'definition') that a random number generator is not true randomness. (Actually, the latter I could see someone trying to exploit, but determining how to make it happen seems like a lot of work) With even a simple 256 PRNG seeding when the machine was powered on, it would be unlikely that any player would devote the time to figure out all 256 patterns, or figure out how to get the game in a state where when they start the game it is on a particular seed. With MsPacman, it is probably beyond the capabilities of a human player to know which way a ghost will turn at any particular intersection in real time. In my simplistic example, it just meant that only two possible patterns were needed to exactly how to solve 2-random state Pacman. Pac-Man game, there is no way for a human player to know with certainty which direction a ghost will move at any given intersection.That was my point, randomness isn't a catch all for determining whether patterns can be used to solve a game. Pac-Man game, there is no way for a human player to know with certainty which direction a ghost will move at any given intersection. ![]() Eventually the PRNG will repeat its pattern.īut all you've done is create two starting states, for which patterns can be memorized. At most they use a PRNG to simulate randomness, which means that they are deterministic. How did I move the goalposts? I corrected what I said, NOT all games are deterministic, but all the games on the vcs/arcade are. Is this game impossible to beat with a predetermined pattern? ![]() So at the start, the player can see Clyde's eyes and know which random state was chosen. Imagine the same deterministic Pacman game, but with one small change, at the start of the game the game randomly (choose whatever method you want here that you will accept as real randomness) starts the ghosts moving in the opposite direction. Here is a simple example to illustrate this isn't the case. Randomness doesn't make a game impossible to beat using a predetermined pattern. Eventually the PRNG will repeat its pattern. ![]() As soon as randomness is introduced, the game becomes non-deterministic.Įnemy attack patterns in Missile Command? The paths barrels take to the bottom in Donkey Kong? Asteroid position and direction in Asteroids? Enemy placement in Defender? Mushrooms in Centipede? Walls and robot placement in Berzerk? All random elements that make deterministic play impossible.How did I move the goalposts? I corrected what I said, NOT all games are deterministic, but all the games on the vcs/arcade are. You can blather on about whether or not random number generators are "really" random, "Capitan", but that would be obvious goalpost-moving on your part, now wouldn't it? No, the only deterministic games are ones in which all the computer's decisions are predetermined and/or based strictly on player input. ![]()
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